Talk:Swap rule - Revision history

Comonoid: typo

2024-10-04T00:05:16Z

typo

Comonoid: comment

2024-10-04T00:04:22Z

comment

Hexanna: add signature

2024-10-02T23:48:28Z

add signature

Hexanna: size 14 convention

2024-10-02T23:48:01Z

size 14 convention

4Dummies: Answered

2024-02-11T02:13:41Z

Answered

4Dummies: followup

2024-02-08T19:47:13Z

followup

Selinger: Talk

2024-02-08T19:16:07Z

Talk

4Dummies: /* Swapping the A column? */ new section

2024-02-08T16:49:07Z

‎Swapping the A column?: new section

Turing: Copied/adapted page from http://hexwiki.tk (I did not ask the original question)

2005-02-06T07:51:09Z

Copied/adapted page from http://hexwiki.tk (I did not ask the original question)

New page

Does anybody know when the swap rule was introduced?

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:05, 4 October 2024
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	If there are no objections, I'd like to switch the () and (+) symbols for the size 14 swap map so it's consistent with other sizes: () > (+) > (-) in order of fairness. (I personally think this is the most memorable ordering, (*) has the most "lines" in the symbol followed by (+) and then (-).) [[User:Hexanna\|Hexanna]] ([[User talk:Hexanna\|talk]]) 23:48, 2 October 2024 (UTC)		If there are no objections, I'd like to switch the () and (+) symbols for the size 14 swap map so it's consistent with other sizes: () > (+) > (-) in order of fairness. (I personally think this is the most memorable ordering, (*) has the most "lines" in the symbol followed by (+) and then (-).) [[User:Hexanna\|Hexanna]] ([[User talk:Hexanna\|talk]]) 23:48, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

−	* This ~~sound~~ like a good idea. I have changed that. It makes sense that each step increases the number of lines by 1. [[User:Comonoid\|Comonoid]] ([[User talk:Comonoid\|talk]]) 00:04, 4 October 2024 (UTC)	+	* This sounds like a good idea. I have changed that. It makes sense that each step increases the number of lines by 1. [[User:Comonoid\|Comonoid]] ([[User talk:Comonoid\|talk]]) 00:04, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:04, 4 October 2024
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	If there are no objections, I'd like to switch the () and (+) symbols for the size 14 swap map so it's consistent with other sizes: () > (+) > (-) in order of fairness. (I personally think this is the most memorable ordering, (*) has the most "lines" in the symbol followed by (+) and then (-).) [[User:Hexanna\|Hexanna]] ([[User talk:Hexanna\|talk]]) 23:48, 2 October 2024 (UTC)		If there are no objections, I'd like to switch the () and (+) symbols for the size 14 swap map so it's consistent with other sizes: () > (+) > (-) in order of fairness. (I personally think this is the most memorable ordering, (*) has the most "lines" in the symbol followed by (+) and then (-).) [[User:Hexanna\|Hexanna]] ([[User talk:Hexanna\|talk]]) 23:48, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
		+
		+	* This sound like a good idea. I have changed that. It makes sense that each step increases the number of lines by 1. [[User:Comonoid\|Comonoid]] ([[User talk:Comonoid\|talk]]) 00:04, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:48, 2 October 2024
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	== Size 14 convention ==		== Size 14 convention ==

−	If there are no objections, I'd like to switch the () and (+) symbols for the size 14 swap map so it's consistent with other sizes: () > (+) > (-) in order of fairness. (I personally think this is the most memorable ordering, (*) has the most "lines" in the symbol followed by (+) and then (-).)	+	If there are no objections, I'd like to switch the () and (+) symbols for the size 14 swap map so it's consistent with other sizes: () > (+) > (-) in order of fairness. (I personally think this is the most memorable ordering, (*) has the most "lines" in the symbol followed by (+) and then (-).) [[User:Hexanna\|Hexanna]] ([[User talk:Hexanna\|talk]]) 23:48, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:48, 2 October 2024
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	Even more important in your reply was that I had never before heard of KataHex. I'm real interested in training an AI on my data. I have about 1.6 million games (no kidding) of 11x11 hex, gathered from real games and much amplified by six with a little guidance from HexHex. I don't know how to train HexHex either, but it sounds like KataHex is probably stronger. I just don't know how to do the training. My data is in HSGF format, that I process using the hexrec program that originally came from gamerecorder.		Even more important in your reply was that I had never before heard of KataHex. I'm real interested in training an AI on my data. I have about 1.6 million games (no kidding) of 11x11 hex, gathered from real games and much amplified by six with a little guidance from HexHex. I don't know how to train HexHex either, but it sounds like KataHex is probably stronger. I just don't know how to do the training. My data is in HSGF format, that I process using the hexrec program that originally came from gamerecorder.
		+
		+	== Size 14 convention ==
		+
		+	If there are no objections, I'd like to switch the () and (+) symbols for the size 14 swap map so it's consistent with other sizes: () > (+) > (-) in order of fairness. (I personally think this is the most memorable ordering, (*) has the most "lines" in the symbol followed by (+) and then (-).)

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:13, 11 February 2024
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	Does anybody know when the swap rule was introduced?		Does anybody know when the swap rule was introduced?
		+
		+	Apparently near the beginning of the 20th century in a game called mancala. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie_rule]

	== Swapping the A column? ==		== Swapping the A column? ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:47, 8 February 2024
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	The problem is that B5 is not actually a good response to A4. Although B5 is a template and a ladder escape for White, A4 still gives Black a [[switchback]] for 2nd row ladders. Moreover, after White plays B5, it's Black's turn again, so White has lost the initiative. After A4 and B5, if Black plays anywhere near the center, Black is almost definitely winning (97-99% win rate according to [[KataHex]]). For example, H4, G5, D8 are all excellent choices for Black's next move. [[User:Selinger\|Selinger]] ([[User talk:Selinger\|talk]]) 19:16, 8 February 2024 (UTC)		The problem is that B5 is not actually a good response to A4. Although B5 is a template and a ladder escape for White, A4 still gives Black a [[switchback]] for 2nd row ladders. Moreover, after White plays B5, it's Black's turn again, so White has lost the initiative. After A4 and B5, if Black plays anywhere near the center, Black is almost definitely winning (97-99% win rate according to [[KataHex]]). For example, H4, G5, D8 are all excellent choices for Black's next move. [[User:Selinger\|Selinger]] ([[User talk:Selinger\|talk]]) 19:16, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
		+
		+	Thanks for that. A bunch. I had just realized that B5 corresponds to an opening (swapped) at E2, which is noted as losing. So it's not so good on the face of it. However, there are taller templates that fit between A4 and the bottom of an 11x11 board, and they might be a bunch better.
		+
		+	Even more important in your reply was that I had never before heard of KataHex. I'm real interested in training an AI on my data. I have about 1.6 million games (no kidding) of 11x11 hex, gathered from real games and much amplified by six with a little guidance from HexHex. I don't know how to train HexHex either, but it sounds like KataHex is probably stronger. I just don't know how to do the training. My data is in HSGF format, that I process using the hexrec program that originally came from gamerecorder.

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:16, 8 February 2024
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	There are also template moves at C5 (ziggurat), and some fourth and fifth-row templates that seem promising.		There are also template moves at C5 (ziggurat), and some fourth and fifth-row templates that seem promising.

−	Comments?	+	Comments? [[User:4Dummies\|4Dummies]] ([[User_talk:4Dummies\|talk]]) 13:49, 8 February 2024‎
		+
		+	The problem is that B5 is not actually a good response to A4. Although B5 is a template and a ladder escape for White, A4 still gives Black a [[switchback]] for 2nd row ladders. Moreover, after White plays B5, it's Black's turn again, so White has lost the initiative. After A4 and B5, if Black plays anywhere near the center, Black is almost definitely winning (97-99% win rate according to [[KataHex]]). For example, H4, G5, D8 are all excellent choices for Black's next move. [[User:Selinger\|Selinger]] ([[User talk:Selinger\|talk]]) 19:16, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:49, 8 February 2024
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	Does anybody know when the swap rule was introduced?		Does anybody know when the swap rule was introduced?
		+
		+	== Swapping the A column? ==
		+
		+	It has occurred to me to doubt the wisdom of swapping most of the left- or right-most columns. I'm just thinking about the templates and how they can block the opening move.
		+
		+	For example, on an 11x11 board, A4 is marked as a probable winner, but the bridge template played at B5 seems to be a good block and when I work it out, A4 seems to lose.
		+	There are also template moves at C5 (ziggurat), and some fourth and fifth-row templates that seem promising.
		+
		+	Comments?